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Know-It-All Newbie
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 Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:00 am Post subject: Idiot's Guide to Razz Tourneys |
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Is there such a thing? (Yes, I'm pondering the RGP
Challenge. I decided if I could win enough at the $10
razz table to make a buy-in for the tourney, I'd
try it.) |
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paulyballs
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:30 am Post subject: Re: Idiot's Guide to Razz Tourneys |
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On May 3 2005 11:30 PM, Know-It-All Newbie wrote:
| Quote: | Is there such a thing? (Yes, I'm pondering the RGP
Challenge. I decided if I could win enough at the $10
razz table to make a buy-in for the tourney, I'd
try it.)
|
I think Hellmuth has a section in his first book on Razz. I think that
may qualify as an 'Idiot's' guide.
Email: [email protected]
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XaQ Morphy
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: Idiot's Guide to Razz Tourneys |
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| Quote: | Is there such a thing? (Yes, I'm pondering the RGP
Challenge. I decided if I could win enough at the $10
razz table to make a buy-in for the tourney, I'd
try it.)
|
I haven't seen one, and based on the play of others in SNG's and tourneys,
they haven't either.
For the first few rounds, pay a LOT of attention to how others play. Will
they call 2 bets cold after bringing in with a K? Will they continue to
call after raising the bringin if they pair or brick? What types of hands
are they raising and calling raises with? Will they play any A2? Do they
pay enough attention to play the cards of others, or do they just focus on
their hands? On the other hand, do they focus too much on other people's
cards, and ignore what they have, hoping to just bluff the person off the
hand? Use the "last hand" feature on FTP to find out what kinds of cards
they are playing and showing down.
Meanwhile you're folding damn near everything. I wouldn't play anything
less than 3 to a 6 low, and as soon as you brick, get out. The chips you
would win early on won't mean anything once the stakes go up 2-3 levels.
The first level is an information gathering level.
Assuming you survive the first 2-3 levels, stealing comes into play. The
most obvious steal is when you have, say, a 3 showing and all other cards
are 9 or higher. Raise the bringin, regardless of what you have. Take
note on what players will continue to play their hands, even with a face
card.
Play in the RGP game. Razz is relatively new to most of us, so for $11,
how can you go wrong?
Morphy
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FellKnight
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Idiot's Guide to Razz Tourneys |
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On May 4 2005 8:07 AM, XaQ Morphy wrote:
| Quote: | Is there such a thing? (Yes, I'm pondering the RGP
Challenge. I decided if I could win enough at the $10
razz table to make a buy-in for the tourney, I'd
try it.)
I haven't seen one, and based on the play of others in SNG's and tourneys,
they haven't either.
For the first few rounds, pay a LOT of attention to how others play. Will
they call 2 bets cold after bringing in with a K? Will they continue to
call after raising the bringin if they pair or brick? What types of hands
are they raising and calling raises with? Will they play any A2? Do they
pay enough attention to play the cards of others, or do they just focus on
their hands? On the other hand, do they focus too much on other people's
cards, and ignore what they have, hoping to just bluff the person off the
hand? Use the "last hand" feature on FTP to find out what kinds of cards
they are playing and showing down.
Meanwhile you're folding damn near everything. I wouldn't play anything
less than 3 to a 6 low, and as soon as you brick, get out. The chips you
would win early on won't mean anything once the stakes go up 2-3 levels.
The first level is an information gathering level.
Assuming you survive the first 2-3 levels, stealing comes into play. The
most obvious steal is when you have, say, a 3 showing and all other cards
are 9 or higher. Raise the bringin, regardless of what you have. Take
note on what players will continue to play their hands, even with a face
card.
Play in the RGP game. Razz is relatively new to most of us, so for $11,
how can you go wrong?
Morphy
|
Pfft... that's some tight-weak advice Morphy :)
If you want to learn to play, Sklansky on Poker has a great section on
Razz.
A few comments Morph:
It depends a lot on what card you have showing for what hands you can
play. If you have an 8 showing (and two better cards), you'll have to
throw away to a lot of 3rd street raises, though if you think he is just
stealing, your should usually re-raise. The exception to the re-raise is
if you will be heads-up, and he is bad enough to call a bet on 4th no
matter how badly he bricks out. If you re-raise on 3rd, he is correctly
drawing on 4th. If the 8 is buried, it is a much easier re-raise, as you
will be playing the strength of your board.
3 cards to a bike/6/7 low are all good starting hands, but it is also
important to determine how live the cards you need are. If you start with
(63)2, but see two 4s and a 5 and an Ace up, it will be signicifcantly
harder to make your hand. It's much better to see several pair cards up,
or bricks.
It is a good idea to defend your bring-in with hands like the brick you
had to bring-in with and two bike cards, as long as it is only one raise
to you, and you will be heads up. Otherwise, fold.
It is often correct to call one more bet on 4th with 3 cards to a premium
hand, especially if the pot is multiway, as you are getting good pot odds.
If you catch good, you should be able to check-raise (or raise) to get it
heads up. A (somewhat live) 4 card 7 is a favourite over a made rough 9
low on 5th heads-up.
Stealing should generally only be done with at least 2 good cards. This
at least gives you outs to make the best hand if you are called.
On the end, let's say you show 866A and your opponent shows 74TK
(obviously drawing to a 7)... if you make a 6 low on the end, this is a
great time to go for the check-raise. He will not (at least should not)
call without at least an 8 low, but he will bet the 7 low if he made it.
That way, you earn two bets. There are many such situations where the
check-raise is appropriate (veeROB!!!!)
HTH... read Sklansky on Poker for a more through discussion on Razz.
Fell
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FellKnight
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: Idiot's Guide to Razz Tourneys |
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On May 4 2005 8:49 AM, XaQ Morphy wrote:
| Quote: | I say the check-raise is appropriate anytime your opponent will fall for
it. If he falls for it on 2 consecutive streets, all the better :)
Morphy
|
DOOD!! I DIDN'T FALL FOR IT TWICE!!!
He got me once, then when he did it again, I realized I was drawing dead
(actually to 2 outs), and I folded. VeeRob was the one making the mistake
lol, he should have bet 6th strret and check-raised 7th (when I almost
have to call).
Fell
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XaQ Morphy
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: Idiot's Guide to Razz Tourneys |
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| Quote: | Pfft... that's some tight-weak advice Morphy :)
If you want to learn to play, Sklansky on Poker has a great section on
Razz.
A few comments Morph:
It depends a lot on what card you have showing for what hands you can
play. If you have an 8 showing (and two better cards), you'll have to
throw away to a lot of 3rd street raises, though if you think he is just
stealing, your should usually re-raise. The exception to the re-raise is
if you will be heads-up, and he is bad enough to call a bet on 4th no
matter how badly he bricks out. If you re-raise on 3rd, he is correctly
drawing on 4th. If the 8 is buried, it is a much easier re-raise, as you
will be playing the strength of your board.
3 cards to a bike/6/7 low are all good starting hands, but it is also
important to determine how live the cards you need are. If you start with
(63)2, but see two 4s and a 5 and an Ace up, it will be signicifcantly
harder to make your hand. It's much better to see several pair cards up,
or bricks.
It is a good idea to defend your bring-in with hands like the brick you
had to bring-in with and two bike cards, as long as it is only one raise
to you, and you will be heads up. Otherwise, fold.
It is often correct to call one more bet on 4th with 3 cards to a premium
hand, especially if the pot is multiway, as you are getting good pot odds.
If you catch good, you should be able to check-raise (or raise) to get it
heads up. A (somewhat live) 4 card 7 is a favourite over a made rough 9
low on 5th heads-up.
Stealing should generally only be done with at least 2 good cards. This
at least gives you outs to make the best hand if you are called.
On the end, let's say you show 866A and your opponent shows 74TK
(obviously drawing to a 7)... if you make a 6 low on the end, this is a
great time to go for the check-raise. He will not (at least should not)
call without at least an 8 low, but he will bet the 7 low if he made it.
That way, you earn two bets. There are many such situations where the
check-raise is appropriate (veeROB!!!!)
HTH... read Sklansky on Poker for a more through discussion on Razz.
|
All good stuff, and thanks for the post. It sounded to me like the OP had
never played before, but was contemplating playing in the RGP game
tonight. My advice was geared more towards that type of player, who may
be sitting at a Razz table for the first time tonight.
I say the check-raise is appropriate anytime your opponent will fall for
it. If he falls for it on 2 consecutive streets, all the better :)
Morphy
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XaQ Morphy
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Idiot's Guide to Razz Tourneys |
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| Quote: | DOOD!! I DIDN'T FALL FOR IT TWICE!!!
He got me once, then when he did it again, I realized I was drawing dead
(actually to 2 outs), and I folded. VeeRob was the one making the mistake
lol, he should have bet 6th strret and check-raised 7th (when I almost
have to call).
|
The important thing is that to the casual observer it looks like you fell
for it twice :)
Morphy
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FellKnight
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: Idiot's Guide to Razz Tourneys |
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On May 4 2005 3:33 PM, veeRob wrote:
| Quote: | And that's what helps me sleep at night.
|
Don't sleep too deeply in Vegas... ;)
Fell
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veeRob
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: Idiot's Guide to Razz Tourneys |
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And that's what helps me sleep at night.
On May 4 2005 10:35 AM, XaQ Morphy wrote:
| Quote: | DOOD!! I DIDN'T FALL FOR IT TWICE!!!
He got me once, then when he did it again, I realized I was drawing dead
(actually to 2 outs), and I folded. VeeRob was the one making the mistake
lol, he should have bet 6th strret and check-raised 7th (when I almost
have to call).
The important thing is that to the casual observer it looks like you fell
for it twice :)
Morphy
|
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Full Tilt Poker :: http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/?aff=394&code=
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veeRob
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 11:31 pm Post subject: Re: Idiot's Guide to Razz Tourneys |
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Are you implying that you're gay?
...not that there's anything wrong with that...
On May 4 2005 3:40 PM, FellKnight wrote:
| Quote: | On May 4 2005 3:33 PM, veeRob wrote:
And that's what helps me sleep at night.
Don't sleep too deeply in Vegas... ;)
Fell
|
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FellKnight
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| Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 12:01 am Post subject: Re: Idiot's Guide to Razz Tourneys |
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On May 4 2005 4:17 PM, veeRob wrote:
| Quote: | Are you implying that you're gay?
...not that there's anything wrong with that...
|
I was under the impression that all Americans thought all Canadians were
gay...
Fell
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Dorian
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| Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 1:00 am Post subject: Re: Idiot's Guide to Razz Tourneys |
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They arent?
On May 4 2005 7:19 PM, FellKnight wrote:
| Quote: | On May 4 2005 4:17 PM, veeRob wrote:
Are you implying that you're gay?
...not that there's anything wrong with that...
I was under the impression that all Americans thought all Canadians were
gay...
Fell
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Know-It-All Newbie
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| Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Idiot's Guide to Razz Tourneys |
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"XaQ Morphy" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
| Quote: | Pfft... that's some tight-weak advice Morphy :)
If you want to learn to play, Sklansky on Poker has a great section
on Razz.
A few comments Morph:
It depends a lot on what card you have showing for what hands you can
play. If you have an 8 showing (and two better cards), you'll have
to throw away to a lot of 3rd street raises, though if you think he
is just stealing, your should usually re-raise. The exception to the
re-raise is if you will be heads-up, and he is bad enough to call a
bet on 4th no matter how badly he bricks out. If you re-raise on
3rd, he is correctly drawing on 4th. If the 8 is buried, it is a
much easier re-raise, as you will be playing the strength of your
board.
3 cards to a bike/6/7 low are all good starting hands, but it is also
important to determine how live the cards you need are. If you start
with (63)2, but see two 4s and a 5 and an Ace up, it will be
signicifcantly harder to make your hand. It's much better to see
several pair cards up, or bricks.
It is a good idea to defend your bring-in with hands like the brick
you had to bring-in with and two bike cards, as long as it is only
one raise to you, and you will be heads up. Otherwise, fold.
It is often correct to call one more bet on 4th with 3 cards to a
premium hand, especially if the pot is multiway, as you are getting
good pot odds.
If you catch good, you should be able to check-raise (or raise) to
get it
heads up. A (somewhat live) 4 card 7 is a favourite over a made
rough 9 low on 5th heads-up.
Stealing should generally only be done with at least 2 good cards.
This at least gives you outs to make the best hand if you are called.
On the end, let's say you show 866A and your opponent shows 74TK
(obviously drawing to a 7)... if you make a 6 low on the end, this is
a great time to go for the check-raise. He will not (at least should
not) call without at least an 8 low, but he will bet the 7 low if he
made it. That way, you earn two bets. There are many such situations
where the check-raise is appropriate (veeROB!!!!)
HTH... read Sklansky on Poker for a more through discussion on Razz.
All good stuff, and thanks for the post. It sounded to me like the OP
had never played before, but was contemplating playing in the RGP game
tonight. My advice was geared more towards that type of player, who
may be sitting at a Razz table for the first time tonight.
I say the check-raise is appropriate anytime your opponent will fall
for it. If he falls for it on 2 consecutive streets, all the better
|
Thanks for the advice! I took it and came in second. It wasn't my
first time at a Razz table, though. It was my second, because I spent a
few hours practicing the night before at the $1/$2 table. It fried my
brain enough that I didn't get up when my alarm went off in the morning
because I thought the numbers on it were a Razz hand and I was trying
to fold it because it had a 9 in it.
I got a couple lucky 7th streets, but I otherwise played it mostly
straight. I only had one chance to check raise effectively, but I
did some fairly nice blind stealing, and got lucky once when I was
called.
I also managed not to drink Drano, so I guess I'm a winner tonight. |
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