MollysPoker.com

[Alan Shank]

On 16 Apr 2005 12:39:12 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

[buckeye-kev]

So are any of the "teachers" at these $1300 lessons, like LoRiggio,
among the 50-100 "good enough" to win? If so why are they WASTING TIME
teaching others for two days for what they could easily win in an hour
or two at any casino? If NOT, then who wants to pay to learn something
from someone who can't put it into practice to win money themselves?

Take me to logic prison as all the "snake oil" salesmen have the same
TONIC to sell ( pure BS ). If it takes hundreds of hours of practice
and skill then who wants to spend $1300 bucks learning something that
you can't possibly benefit from for YEARS and then only if you are
willing to stand in your basement alone every night practicing your
toss on some trumped up table INSTEAD OF LIVING YOUR LIFE! Don't quit
your day job is RIGHT!

Those who can DO. Those who can't sell books and give seminars!

[Guest]

Well, you're actually going to put me in the position of defending Dom.
Hard to imagine with all the animosity between the various factions in
P-shooting. Fact it, Dom is an excellent shooter. Could he support
himself playing full time? Probably. Would he want to? I doubt it.
You really need to know how to play under the radar to be successful
with this stuff full time. I don't think Dom can do that. Besides,
the guy has a life outside the casino.

Are there people out there (who don't give seminars or sell books) who
are making a living playing craps? Absolutely. I have personal
knowledge of three "teams" playing in various parts of the country
right now, along with half a dozen or so single players who are making
a living at the tables. Are they living well? Depends on what your
version of living well is. A couple are doing very well. One, not so
well. The rest fall in the middle somewhere. Humping it around the
country, spending every night in a different hotel or sleeping in your
32 foot travel trailer in the Walmart parking lot isn't for everyone.
Playing hit and run in a dozen casinos a day in Vegas ain't all that
romantic either. And thanks to all the TV shows on precision shooting
lately, it's getting tougher and tougher to toss a hand without getting
casino heat. Fact is, talk to any professional gambler and he'll tell
you it's WORK - hard work - if you're going to do it right and be
successful. Fact is, as you noted, there are damn few people willing
to put the time in to acquire the skills needed to play with a positive
expectation. For those folks - that's why the casino has slots.

[The Midnight Skulker]

[Mr. V]

"And thanks to all the TV shows on precision shooting
lately, it's getting tougher and tougher to toss a hand without getting
casino heat."

No, thanks to you, Irish, GTC, Yuri and the other internet promoters
who shamelessly promoted yourselves, yelling to the world (casino staff
included) about how you are winning millions from the casinos.

Whether or not they believe you can do it or not isn't the point: you
have only yourselves and your big, collective yaps to thank for the
casino countermeasures.

You guys coulda flown under the radar, but NOOOOOO...

roll dem bones

[Fish-A-Holic]

I really shouldn't chime in here but something has been
bothering me for a while when I read threads on PS/DC/DI's
and this is as good as any thread to ask.

If it is such a fallacy as proclaimed by the likes of Mason
(who I assume to be a casino employee (?)) and others
then why any "heat" whatsoever?

Seems to me that if it works then casino "heat" would be
the telling sign that it actually does. Which makes Mason,
etal full of crap as to his opinion(s).

On the other hand, should the naysayer be correct then why
do casinos even bat an eye much less apply "heat" in various
forms to thwart such shooting?

Also, was curious if the casinos apply the same sort of heat
to folks who shoot from the Don't side as they do for folks
shooting from the Do side?

Thanks......


<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

[Mr. V]

Simple, Fish.

The promoters and purveyors of Dice Setting trumpet to the world how IT
WORKS, how they WIN MILLIONS from the casinos, and how for a heavy fee,
they will teach John Q. Public how to become an ADVANTAGE PLAYER.

Casinos got burned by the true Advantage Players of Blackjack, via card
counting, and are obviously attuned to detect and destroy any other new
forms of Advantage Play which they detect on their radar.

Do they know, or really care, whether or not Dice Setting really works?

Nope, and it's irrelevant.

If a deranged lunatic is coming at you with a knife, screaming "I'm
gonna kill you," must you verify whether or not he means it before
defending yourself?

Of course not; nor must they verify the veracity of the swaggering brag
of Scoblete, Irish, and the other Big Mouths of the Bones.

They couldn't keep their damned mouths shut; not because it works, but
because it is a SCAM that requires promotion and awareness in order to
line the pockets of the scammers.

roll dem bones

[Guest]

Mr. V wrote:

"No, thanks to you, Irish, GTC, Yuri and the other internet promoters
who shamelessly promoted yourselves, yelling to the world (casino staff

included) about how you are winning millions from the casinos."

I have NEVER claimed that I was winning millions from the casinos.
That's Scobe's claim to fame.

Mr. V also said:

"They couldn't keep their damned mouths shut; not because it works, but
because it is a SCAM that requires promotion and awareness in order to
line the pockets of the scammers."

Since you are so convinced that dice control doesn't work, I'm not sure
why you're whining. Call it a scam if you wish, but there would not be
any p-shooting seminars if there weren't a market for it. But hey,
you're an attorney, right? Ever chase an ambulance?

My suggestion - stick with what you know. When it comes to precision
shooting, it ain't a hell of a lot.

[Richard]

On 20 Apr 2005 14:19:50 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

[alan]

The fact is, the casinos do believe in precision shooting or dice
influencing or whatever you want to call it. I have reported here how
Ive run into lots of heat at MGM Grand, NYNY, and Bellagio for setting
and throwing a "controlled throw." And I got that heat at Bellagio
even when I was LOSING money.

At MGM I got the heat during a monster hand that lasted about 65
minutes.

At NYNY I got the heat after only five or six rolls of the dice.

Each time, the suits said it was because I was setting the dice and NOT
hurling them but making a soft or controlled throw. Each time I asked
them, "do you believe it makes a difference?" and each time they said
yes.

My experience at Bellagio nearly two years ago has been reported here
in the newsgroup and has made me an "unwelcome person" at the craps
tables there (in practice but not officially, at least).

Even though many on this newsgroup do not believe in DC, or DI, or
whatever you want to call it, the casinos believe in it, watch for it,
and don't want to see it.

Now that Ive said that, let me also report to you that in the last four
years since I learned about dice control, Ive only played craps with
three or four shooters who were legitimate "controllers" or
"influencers." They were all "independents" and not related to any of
the promoters of DI including GTC or Heavy or Scobolete or PARR.

Frankly, I believe that maybe there are only a dozen real DCers or
DIers out there. But I also believe that there are maybe only a dozen
or so card counters and advantaged BJ players out there.

There are many who want-to-be and try-to-be but I agree that it is
something that youre not going to learn in one weekend with a $1300
investment.

However, given the choice of dropping $1300 at a craps table in one
afternoon (and Ive dropped that much in fifteen minutes) I would think
that spending $1300 for a session in a dice setting class would be more
fun, a better expense, and cheaper entertainment than playing at a
casino.

Ive never paid for one of these schools, though I once took a $49
session in Vegas (where I met Heavy a couple of years ago), but if I
were to spend the $1300 it would be an "entertainment expense" and
nothing more.

but then... my casino betting is also "entertainment" and nothing more.

cheers.

[ACDOC]

There are two aspects to what Mr. V. and others are saying that I want to
address.

The first aspect is the seminar scam. You expose your bankroll to a
negative expectation game (at least the way you play it)for entertainment,
and then get upset when seminars are offerred (a different form of
entertainment) on dice setting. Haven't you ever taken lessons from a
"Pro" for golf, music etc? They do get up to $50 an hour you know. I
haven't taken a DI seminar yet, but I have spent thousands on music
lessons, studio time, instruments, etc. over the years. It is all
disposable income if it is for entertainment purposes(unless you have the
"sickness").

The second aspect to the general discussion revolves around the
effectiveness of DI. I personally think that it is possible to reduce the
house edge sufficiently for most players to have a good game. I also think
that there are only a handful of folks good enough to extract enough of a
profit from the tables using DI that it becomes a significant source of
income.

Why do I do it? Because I like the idea that I have a hobby that can
actually pay for itself (which is true for me at this point).

However, after having said all of the above: you want to know if it works?
then buy yourself a pair of precision casino dice and learn how to shoot.

Otherwise, you will never understand the DI thing.

I don't mind if the "secrets" of DI are discussed in closed access,
subscription forums. But, I really don't want to see it on TV where 10s of
thousands of viewers are watching.

ACDOC.

[Mr. V]

Since you are so convinced that dice control doesn't work, I'm not sure
why you're whining.

I'm not whining, really, I am criticizing and flaming.

Call it a scam if you wish, but there would not be
any p-shooting seminars if there weren't a market for it.

The market has been fueled by the internet, the ringing endorsements of
dice setting, the tales of hour long controlled rolls and wheel barrows
full of chips fly across cyberspace, snaring the desperate and the
hopeless in a web of greed and misapplied logic.

My suggestion - stick with what you know. When it comes to precision
shooting, it ain't a hell of a lot.

I know that if it really worked, you'd be employing it, flying under
the radar, instead of tirelessly promoting yourself and your buddies,
trying to make enough money to feed your gambling jones.

What, would you have people believe you only do it for the good of the
game?

BWAAA HAHAHAH!

roll dem bones

[Guest]

I'm not sure what "truth" you are talking about, Richard. The "truth"
is, the efficacy of precision shooting has been proven time and again -
both in and out of the casino - by many people. It has been well
documented by folks like Stanford Wong, who has shown a remarkable
aptitude for precision shooting and is WAY ahead of the game since
learning to toss.

I can tell you that we are currently documenting a large book of rolls
(this has been going on for almost a year) for a book I'm working on
with a fellow who teaches statistical math at the university level for
casino management majors. And yes, our results will be published and
will show that "it works."

If you didn't hear anything from me regarding Steen's take on my rolls,
you weren't reading the NG. The rolls you questioned were correctly
recorded. Had I been trying to capitalize on the from a marketing
standnpoint, I would have asked Steen to associate my name with them
when he put them on his site for people to upload. Instead, I
specificially asked him NOT to tag my name on there.

The fact that you do not comprehend the concept of a shooter
effectively combining axis control and pitch control compounds your
inability to grasp SRR's in the 1:12, 1:18, 1:24 or even higher range.
Just because you can't do it doesn't mean nobody can.

[Guest]

"I know that if it really worked, you'd be employing it, flying under
the radar, instead of tirelessly promoting yourself and your buddies,
trying to make enough money to feed your gambling jones."

Interesting comment. One the weak-minded often fall back on. Of
course, if I were TRULY playing under the radar - you wouldn't know it,
would you? Fact is, I am. REGULARLY. Members of my craps forum also
know that I am auditioning shooters for a pro-team I'm cranking up.
Yes, we have had some preliminary sessions and yes, we do have specific
rules about staying under the radar. Team members are not allowed to
post trip reports or discuss sessions with anyone outside the group.
In fact, we don't even discuss what markets we play in or when. Guess
you'll just have to be in the dark on that info.

I do the seminars because I enjoy doing them. The fact that I get paid
to do this stuff is a plus. But if I never did another craps class, it
would not impact my gaming bankroll. Unlike 99.9% of you, I maintain a
separate bank account specifically for casino play. I won't go too
deep into how much is in there, but if I wanted to call my host at one
of the Vegas properties I frequent and get my credit line bumped up to
$20K, I don't think it would be a problem. The vast majority of that
bankroll is "won" money, by the way. It's not much of a bankroll
compared to some of the guys I play with, but enough to keep me happily
in the game for the forseeable future.

[Guest]

"This _is_ a response from a marketeer who is trying to prevent his
potential and actual customers from exposure to the truth."

What BS. Richard try to make it appear you know something about what
you are talking about.

"Prevent" exposure to the truth?

Sorry pal, you don't know what you are talking about in this case.



Golfer